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    Artifact - Let's Shop!

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    Artifact - Let's Shop!

    		Link to Artifact - The Dota Card Game

    Let's Shop!

    Posted: 04 May 2020 01:21 PM PDT

    A lux while we wait.

    Posted: 04 May 2020 10:08 AM PDT

    What's the point of giving feedback during current state of the game?

    Posted: 04 May 2020 02:44 PM PDT

    We can't play, we don't know how the game looks, how it plays etc.

    IMHO sending feedback right now can make more harm than help.

    submitted by /u/Novameh
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    The Rasheedies constructed tournament tomorrow

    Posted: 04 May 2020 02:48 PM PDT

    20:00 UTC (~22 hours from this post). Constructed. 5 round swiss into top 8 bo1 bracket, bo3 finals.

    Prize pool: 1st - $30, 2nd - "pity $5"

    tourney link

    Hosted by NotRasheed, who will be casting with Baby.

    submitted by /u/kivvi
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    What are your thoughts on Blink Scrolls?

    Posted: 04 May 2020 05:55 PM PDT

    Despite being introduced in this latest shop-centered blogpost, Blink Scrolls are a mechanic that feel largely adjacent to it. Here's what we were told about them:

    Most consumables, including Town Portal Scrolls, have been removed from the game completely. You now get a similar item, the Blink Scroll, the first time you bring each enemy tower to half health. Blink Scrolls work like a Blink Dagger but are consumed on use (each let you move a hero to a slot in an adjacent lane).

    I find some of this a bit iffy, and a bit hard to gauge. Blink Scrolls are granted when you're performing well in the game is one such thing. I find it strange that they thought of rewarding players already at an advantage with tool a to furthering that advantage by blinking in more allies onto safe lane slots.

    It should however be noted that earlier in the post, the following line was given as part of the faults Valve is trying to address with the Shop

    * Some of the items felt too important (Blink Dagger, Town Portal Scroll, etc.)

    Blink Scrolls are seemingly being equated, and presented as an alternative to Town Portal Scrolls as a method of moving out a hero from a lane. The specific use case appears to be to prevent a hero from being stuck in a lane that the player no longer finds an interest in without that player requiring Blink Daggers as part of their item decks.

    This was, of course, not the only reason why getting a Town Portal Scroll in the store was a good thing, there were more situations where you wanted them. Artifact 2.0 is partially covering those other scenarios with Hero-on-Hero deployment bouncing. But then again, Hero bouncing mechanics will never give you, on its own, a way to completely empty a lane of heroes, you need some among them to die.

    Three lane movements per match would be a lot in Artifact 1.0. That's what made Blink Daggers so busted even if yo only got them off twice. But Artifact 2.0 allegedly has greater number of total rounds, and moreover, this is a reward for aggression. Aggression that could be demanded on a mostly pointless third tower many players won't bother with, so they may end up seeing 2 blink scrolls.

    I'm trying to make a takeaway from this on what this means for the game, and I'm not entirely sure. Is it good, is it bad? Am I missing something with how we get or use these?

    submitted by /u/DrQuint
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    so it's true.

    Posted: 04 May 2020 05:37 PM PDT

    dota underlords were developed to be artifact 2.0 shopping tutorial.

    submitted by /u/KronnNguyen
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    "I could have been a lowly grub, but by the grace of our goddess Nyx, I have been elevated to the highest state. Nor shall I disappoint her"

    Posted: 04 May 2020 03:28 PM PDT

    Consumables RNG problem and how to fix it.

    Posted: 04 May 2020 04:33 PM PDT

    Artifact 2.0 Deployment Analysis

    Posted: 04 May 2020 05:57 AM PDT

    Let's Talk About Artifact Updates (Week 5)

    Posted: 04 May 2020 09:52 PM PDT

    All-Hero Challenge Day 15: Chaos Knight

    Posted: 04 May 2020 04:12 PM PDT

    Let's Budget Shopping!

    Posted: 04 May 2020 09:17 PM PDT

    Now that we know more about the shopping phase, we collectively seem to have more questions than answers. It's difficult to contextualize what Valve has planned for the shopping phase based purely on the write up provided. Hopefully, we'll get more information soon that will give us more to work with.

    In the meantime, it might be useful to consider what items are actually worth. With all the mechanics and moving parts involved in the shop upgrade system, it's becoming a bit tough to abstract what might be the gold cost of an item of any particular tier. It's complicated further when you consider the costs to upgrade the shop, as you're prevented from accessing a higher tier item until you pay a certain amount, and that amount varies over the course of the game.

    There's still some unknown variables in this setup. One element the Shopping post was unclear about was whether or not you could upgrade the shop multiple times in a turn. It's a significant distinction for whether or not certain timing curves pan out or not, though it's significance drops off fairly quickly.

    These charts show the total gold cost needed to purchase a singular item of a given tier. The costs listed assume the most gold-efficient shop upgrades feasible for that given turn. The first chart assumes an unrestricted Upgrade option, enabling you to upgrade the shop multiple times in a single turn. The second chart assumes you will be restricted to upgrading the shop once per turn.

    With this in mind, what can we take away from this information?

    • High tier items become less expensive over time.
    • It is almost never efficient to upgrade the shop at 3 gold unless you're pushing for an early timing.
    • The price floor for shop upgrades happens on turn 12 (assuming players are upgrading efficiently).
    • A staggered upgrade progression typically increases the cost of higher tier items by 2 compared to an unrestricted upgrade progression, with the increase gradually disappearing in later turns.

    Passive income from shop upgrades is more difficult to map out, since the timing of investments has a dramatic impact on cost curves. As a general rule, it takes three rounds of investing to earn back the lost passive income from a 5-cost upgrade. Of course, gold is not the sole consideration of the game, and you're unlikely to spend that many rounds investing unless you're aiming for a specific timing push.

    submitted by /u/Dyne4R
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    Shop feedback

    Posted: 04 May 2020 05:29 PM PDT

    The new items have really cool effects! I feel like the new shop is going in the right direction, but like others have said, maybe a bit too complicated. I do like the tiers though.

    Few ideas I have:

    IDEA 1: I don't like that the item deck encourages you to make a specific plan or counter to a deck, but you can't even rely on getting the cards you put in your item deck. So I would get rid of item decks, which would make it more tactical. Just have 3 random items from the entire item pool — however, they need to be equal or less than your shop tier. You can reroll, you can pass, or you can upgrade to a higher tier.

    IDEA 2: saw this on Reddit, and thought it was a cool idea. Will also give heroes stronger identities. 5 upgrade trees — 1 for each of the hero. Each hero can be upgraded 3 times. First hero upgrade costs 10 coins, then 15 coins, then 20 coins. Rerolling and upgrading shop tier don't fit anymore. Invest can go too because it just adds extra math, but it's fine if it stays.

    IDEA 3: Same thing as idea 2 except it's item upgrade tree instead of hero upgrade tree. Compared to idea 2, this will open up deck building and make decks more diverse. You make an item deck of 5 item cards, and when you buy the first level of an item, you unlocks the next tier of that item. I'm thinking they would be separate items you can equip.

    submitted by /u/Bash717
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    My thoughts on the new shop.

    Posted: 04 May 2020 04:12 PM PDT

    Right now we have ~50 items in the game. they said they removed almost all consumables (let's say 5) and let's assume they added ~20 items. We'd be somewhere around 60-65 possible items in the shop pool (+your item deck which might still be 9+). If we assume more cards at lower tiers then I'd assume ~25 t1 items in the pool. We get 1/9th of that in t1 shop, with a refresh for a small price on top of that. In 1.0 we had the same chance for our own item deck, but no refresh. Considering a pretty big increase in ways to earn money, I'd say this shop is better than it was before, at early stage of the game.

    But if you're playing an econ deck and want to buy only high price items, the shop becomes quite a bit worse. Your item deck (if it consists of only t4-5 items) will help out a bit, but not that much. If we assume the first three tiers having ~50 items and your item deck consisting of 3x3 t4 items + ~10 t4 items in the default pool, then your chances of getting the item you want would be ~1/17 if you haven't bought a single lower tier item (and if my math is somewhat correct).

    If my assumptions and math are correct, the best thing to ask of volvo would be to make the reroll show only new items instead of just rerolling the whole pool. That way people could math out how much money they'd need to get to their item.

    We've got quite a few math bois in here, so please check my maths. And to everyone else, outside of simple hate for the rngness of it all, what would your thoughts be about the shop if my assumptions are correct and if volvo do make reroll the way I suggested.

    submitted by /u/NiKras
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    One of the highest upvoted posts in this sub history (check it out, it's good for nostalgia) aged like milk

    Posted: 04 May 2020 02:46 PM PDT

    What do you guys think about just drawing an item from your item deck during the shopping phase and buy whatever else as needed?

    Posted: 04 May 2020 04:05 PM PDT

    I feel like we can all agree that the new shopping phase is quite more complicated than it needs to be. My gut feeling tells me that it's not going to be fun managing all the different aspects of it. I know can't tell for sure until I play it, but it doesn't hurt to think of alternatives.

    So here's an idea to simplify it: draw an item card from your item deck each shopping phase. Then you can buy anything else as needed. To prevent you from playing high tier items from the start, the tier of items you can play will be tied to the level of your shop. Unlike mana which increases by 1 each round, the shop's level only increases by buying upgrades. This reduces to the actions during the shopping phase to two choices- buy or upgrade. The reroll isn't as necessary when you are already drawing from your item deck. Whatever you want should already be in your deck. Same with the free gold since free item = less buying.

    We can even simplify it further by making the shop's level round-based like mana. Maybe increasing by 1 every two rounds. No need to upgrade. I don't know though. Maybe upgrading is needed to make gold-based decks viable.

    Overall, this idea still satisfies the good things about the shop from the blog post:

    • Building up powerful heroes feels great.
    • The flow of adding abilities to your hero over the course of the game...
    • It was fun when players were able to adapt to heir situation and make creative of an item in the secret shop.
    • You could evaluate what to purchase fairly quickly.

    I would even argue that it make purchasing much simpler by not having an option to reroll.

    But also not bringing back the bad things like:

    • Players of often felt compelled to stuff their decks with cheap items...
    • It was easy to jump to top-tier items...
    • It felt weird when the shop opened with no good options for the player.

    In my opinion, always getting an item, even if you can't play it, feels much better than opening a shop with terrible items. Even if you draw a bad item, it doesn't feel as bad because it was free and you now have more chance to draw whatever you want next round as oppose to, in 1.0, where you can get the same bad item every round and not be able to get rid of it.

    Thoughts?

    submitted by /u/alan2234637
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    SteamDB update, Possibly Beta?

    Posted: 04 May 2020 11:59 AM PDT

    The shop rework isn't good and here is why:

    Posted: 04 May 2020 03:20 PM PDT

    They said the problem with the shop was that it was too confusing and complicated. But people only complained about the shop RNG(mostly the tp scroll.)

    The shop rework is more RNG heavy and complicated than before. Just think about when you build a deck and you have to take into consideration an item's tier AND gold cost and think about at what mana can you afford it and if it's worth it. And we didn't even took into consideration certain matchups. Is it worth putting high tier items into your deck if you won't get many kills? You'll just use tier 1 items.

    I think the old system was fine but I'd make 3 changes to it.

    • Make the item deck searchable. Let the player scroll through it and buy whatever he wants so you don't have to worry about bricking your deck with high cost items. Let the players play more diverse item decks.

    • Replace the hold button with a TP scroll button for 3g. I don't think removing the tp scroll is necessary. Giving more options to the player is always better than just saying "you can't do that"

    • Let the player sell items from the hand (return half of the cost rounded down). So if you are 1 gold off from buying a big item you can sell your unwated tp scroll for a better play.

    submitted by /u/NeilaTheSecond
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    "So in order to improve infuriating RNG, we added Underlords slot machines to the shop"

    Posted: 04 May 2020 03:11 PM PDT

    Autobattlers and card games are different games. The random upgradeable shop works with Underlords because it's the only way to add strategy to the game trying to manipulate the RNG to your favour.

    In a card game like Artifact there are 50 other decisions that need to be made each round and adding a gimmick-y unreliable shop is just going to make the game too unapproachable to players, plus it doesn't fix the frustration of not getting the item you want due to RNG.

    submitted by /u/Undercover_Ch
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    Initial reaction and how I would do Shop instead

    Posted: 04 May 2020 03:21 PM PDT

    Ok, so aesthetically it's less pleasing with implementation suggested in "Let's Shop!". Flat item costs, Upgrade and upgrade cost reduction 5>3>1, Reroll being 2 gold seems too expensive overall. "Earn +3 Gold" instead I like though.

    It's just too many knobs to turn, feels even more like a boardgame in a way.

    So my suggestion would be:

    • Remove "Upgrade", make items random again, with more varied cost again.

    • 1 of the 3 displayed cards will always be from your deck (and Shop will maybe always display at least one item of those three - 10 gold or below).

    • Reroll cost to 1 (but when 9 items left in deck - reroll cost will increase by 1 for each missing card in your deck).

    Something like this would be more enjoyable at least for me to play. It's more chaotic, rogue, aestetically pleasing.

    Maybe: 1 of 3 secret shop cards are always hidden and flipped, with a "?" on the card back (since secret shop after all). And you have to pay 1 gold to reveal it. And maybe this card will be the same for both players (gives more incentive to reveal it too).

    submitted by /u/Arachas
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